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Topic Subject:ponder this
ganfan1
Member
posted 09-25-06 05:07 PM EDT (US)         
about1/2 of our discusions about civ are on england or uk with germany next

yet we say england/uk sux what gives who complains so much...

so instead of messing up all the other threads with england cr** just right it here

The bar of complaints

[This message has been edited by ganfan1 (edited 09-25-2006 @ 05:16 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Rotaretilbo
Member
(id: Brandon Rebuga)
posted 09-25-06 06:09 PM EDT (US)     1 / 21       
There aren't a lot of UK complaints, it is mainly England. This is because England was overpowered in the whole scheme of RTS mechanics. An RTS usually has several types of civs. It has the light, weak, but extremely cheap civ, the heavy, strong, expensive civ, and the medium, balanced, easy to manage civ; the last of which is meant for beginners to learn the game while the first two are meant for more advanced players. To force the player to make the transfer and learn the more complex civs, the easy civ must be a sort of underdog in everything but its managability. England is very easy to use, and is not weaker enough than the other civs, so newbs stick with it because it is both easy to use and strong. In the World War ages, the UK is weak enough compared to the other civs that newbs usually start on it and then move to another civ, usually France or Russia, but sometimes US or Germany. There are still players who stay with the underdog almost as a sign of power, to show that they don't need the better or cheaper units to win, that they can micro-manage enough to compensate for their civ. However, if you don't need any micro to compensate for your civ, then it does not really require skill to win.

Example: Starcraft
Cheap: Zerg
Power: Protoss
Beginner: Terran
This is evident in the fact that the only civ playable in the demo is the Terran. They are a simple civ, easy to learn, and decently strong. However, good micro is needed to counter Zerg rushes and Protoss strong arms. Thus, unless the player is a beginner or expert, he moves to Zerg or Protoss. This is how an RTS is meant to be.


"Also, I'm no clearer on what WIFOM is really, although I gather it's something to do with Thymole being gay..." -Sassenach
"I don't lie in my claims and I don't intend to." -WeeMicky
"OH MY GOD A DINOSAUR" -Peter Fallon
Bxnyc
Member
posted 09-25-06 08:39 PM EDT (US)     2 / 21       
I dont think England is overpowered. They are only overpowered in very fast settings. Same as with Germany. They become much more deadly in very fast settings than standard auto settings.

My complaint is with these noob Imp players, they only play very fast settings and complain when you want to play fast speed. They know that England is on level footing with the other civs if they play standard fast speed and they will lose!

The other day I played an Imp game and it was 2v2 (since no one plays WW1 anymore). Everyone except me picked England with very fast speed and reveal map. I was by far the better player but with France I could not compete. This shows an imbalance but these noobs think their special...

[This message has been edited by Bxnyc (edited 09-25-2006 @ 08:43 PM).]

Rotaretilbo
Member
(id: Brandon Rebuga)
posted 09-26-06 00:04 AM EDT (US)     3 / 21       
I'm not really saying England is overpowered as it is equally powered. England should be slightly underpowered to compnesate for the ease of micro-management.

And fast settings against Germany usually means Germany just gets rushed faster...


"Also, I'm no clearer on what WIFOM is really, although I gather it's something to do with Thymole being gay..." -Sassenach
"I don't lie in my claims and I don't intend to." -WeeMicky
"OH MY GOD A DINOSAUR" -Peter Fallon
GoSailing
EEH Seraph
posted 09-26-06 00:11 AM EDT (US)     4 / 21       
I am really sick of the stereotype that all Imp players are noobs. Granted there are a good amount of them, but not all. I play random civ, unreveal map everytime. I can't stand England either, and I honestly choose a civ like China or Korea over England in a clan war that would be close, and I need to be competitive. Don't lump me in with KSA and noobs who follow them.

"It seems to me the humour of Sails is so dry you could strike a match on it and it would be the humour that caught fire." - Friend of Old
elder_king
Guest
posted 09-26-06 07:03 AM EDT (US)     5 / 21       
England is a terrible civilization. Their villagers take too long to create. Their building placement is nice, but say you need to get a certain counter building up quick- then you can't build it any faster can you?

Other than that, their soldiers are all too standard. Anyone would rather have soldiers who are a bit weaker but can walk through trees.

China can have a massive economy in no time, and plenty of soldiers to support it. China has special soldiers that are overlooked such as the War Kite, which horses cannot even attack, and the chu ko nu that slaughters a pile of infantry that the enemy is not paying attention to!

Korea can send in a group of 4 or 5 soldiers, massacre all of England's wood cutting villies, getting them for themself and ending the game immediately because England's economy takes forever to restart.

France can raid all game and England won't be able to do anything about it.

The only people who lose to England are idiots who sit there and let England mass gold mining camps around the map, and still the game will be close.

England is terrible. I don't understand why people lose to them. Oh wait, yes I know! It's because people play on very fast speed and reveal map, both of which give England the huge advantage.

Gosailing, you are not an imp noob. I realize you play with real settings instead of those which give a terrible civilization an advantage.

ganfan1
Member
posted 09-26-06 03:37 PM EDT (US)     6 / 21       
its quite easy to forget that in real life this game depicts england realy well, good soldiers, masse armie, pawerful navy, trade. Then the uk is even better with their sas expensive bomber and cheap fighters so they did well at stanless steal if your going for historicly arcurate
Falcon907
Member
posted 09-26-06 03:53 PM EDT (US)     7 / 21       
All civs are balanced, and if you lose, you lose.

The only exeption is bad map for the game, like 3 settelments or very far resources


Imperial age sucks
World war auto setts pwn
I rest my case
Rotaretilbo
Member
(id: Brandon Rebuga)
posted 09-26-06 06:43 PM EDT (US)     8 / 21       
Ganfan, the primary objective of an RTS is balance. Realism is a secondary objective, and if it interferes with the primary it should be ignored. Realistically, Germany should be able to take out any other civ in World War II, and perhaps even in World War I. We must remember that it took the other four to take it down in World War II, and it took three plus cheap British tactics (Hunger Blockade) to get them to surrender in World War I, so realistically Germany should be both economically superior, militarily superior, and their units should build faster. If they are facing the Russians, they should fight harder, and if they are facing the western powers, they should be sloppy, but not completely idiotic. However, this would cause an imbalance in the game, so Germany is given a cumbersome ecomony (which they did have at the beginning of WWI, or perhaps a tad before it, but Hitler fixed that quickly, and with ease).

edler_king: Yes, England is inferior to the other civs, I see your point. I still think it is not inferior enough to eliminate the imbalance. Newbs should be forced to move to another civ, there shouldn't be settings that give England an advantage, but perhaps settings that give the others advantages. The idea is to make newbs move on, rather than clinging to thier precious easy civ.


"Also, I'm no clearer on what WIFOM is really, although I gather it's something to do with Thymole being gay..." -Sassenach
"I don't lie in my claims and I don't intend to." -WeeMicky
"OH MY GOD A DINOSAUR" -Peter Fallon
elder_king
Guest
posted 09-27-06 05:52 AM EDT (US)     9 / 21       

Quote:

England is inferior to the other civs, I see your point. I still think it is not inferior enough to eliminate the imbalance

Imbalance? In fact, many of the "England n00bs" have moved on to other civilizations that they now think are the best, such as a France infantry mass by 12 F11 that is double the number of infantry for England and it is before England gets their drummer. Or, at least this was 3 weeks ago because I have not played for a while. Perhaps they are onto another civilization now?

Quote:

All civs are balanced, and if you lose, you lose.

Finally! I was waiting for someone to say it. Thank you Falcon, for speaking the truth.

My point about how terrible England is was just to get people to think. All the civilizations are balanced, for two reasons:

1. No civilization has dominated the game, and players have always found ways out of the dominant strategies.

2. Anyone can write about any civilization being overpowered or underpowered. England is a good example here, because after Rebuga thought England was OP, I convinced him otherwise by merely mentioning England's weaknesses-- and all the civilizations have weaknesses.

Maybe another good example is that imp noobs continue to switch from civilization to civilization claiming a new one is the best one.

[This message has been edited by elder_king (edited 09-27-2006 @ 06:01 AM).]

Rotaretilbo
Member
(id: Brandon Rebuga)
posted 09-27-06 03:09 PM EDT (US)     10 / 21       
I suppose I am wrong here. I still await a strategy guide for how to play as the underdog civs (Germany and UK)

"Also, I'm no clearer on what WIFOM is really, although I gather it's something to do with Thymole being gay..." -Sassenach
"I don't lie in my claims and I don't intend to." -WeeMicky
"OH MY GOD A DINOSAUR" -Peter Fallon
Falcon907
Member
posted 09-27-06 05:18 PM EDT (US)     11 / 21       
will write next week promise!

Imperial age sucks
World war auto setts pwn
I rest my case
GoSailing
EEH Seraph
posted 09-27-06 06:41 PM EDT (US)     12 / 21       
England really is a pretty crappy civilization, except at the very first rush, because they can get an infantry out at 2:20 if the person is fast. Also around 14-20 minutes they dominate because the advantage of the drummer hasn't been evened out by other civs econ and military yet.

"Maybe another good example is that imp noobs continue to switch from civilization to civilization claiming a new one is the best one."

Not really. As you said, imp NOOBS. They just don't know crap and therefore switch opinions easily and without considering all aspects of a civilization. I am not saying England is OP but their rush is probably a bit to effective, and drummers add a LOT of speed that make it OP around 15 minutes, but if the speed addition were to be lowered, England wouldn't have a popcicle's chance in hell during the late game.


"It seems to me the humour of Sails is so dry you could strike a match on it and it would be the humour that caught fire." - Friend of Old

[This message has been edited by GoSailing (edited 09-27-2006 @ 06:45 PM).]

elder_king
Guest
posted 09-27-06 08:13 PM EDT (US)     13 / 21       

Quote:

drummers add a LOT of speed that make it OP around 15 minutes,

OP OP OP. Nothing is OP. Just don't let England get a drummer! If England gets a drummer, so what. If China freezes England's drummer army with a priest and uses sword cavalry to kill all of England's infantry, that might seem unfair too! Whoever plays more tactically and strategically will win a match. Period.

GoSailing
EEH Seraph
posted 09-27-06 10:11 PM EDT (US)     14 / 21       
I didn't say that would be unfair or OP. Using a chinese priest like that is effective and simply put funny. One game I played, it was a few of my friends vs unknown players. We found out they were total noobs and game was horribly unbalance. To add some entertainment, I told them only I would play them all (four of them) and I massed priests and all I did was put about 4 volcanoes around military, then freeze them in place, so they couldn't run away. I won the game with purely priests.

The simple fact is, with England's drummer at about 15 minutes, nothing can match up to the speed, which means nothing can attack it. In a few minutes it not a big deal because the other civs should have a twice as big/strong an army. I am not saying get rid of the drummer, or even to make its speed lower (Like SSSI would/could do anything anyways) but that it is a slight unbalance, at that time.


"It seems to me the humour of Sails is so dry you could strike a match on it and it would be the humour that caught fire." - Friend of Old
Bxnyc
Member
posted 09-28-06 04:05 PM EDT (US)     15 / 21       

Quote:

OP OP OP. Nothing is OP. Just don't let England get a drummer! If England gets a drummer, so what. If China freezes England's drummer army with a priest and uses sword cavalry to kill all of England's infantry, that might seem unfair too! Whoever plays more tactically and strategically will win a match. Period.

That is true during normal fast settings, but I don't agree that is true with very fast settings. England is almost unbeatable with vfast settings. Now I admit my Imp skills are lacking a bit, but there is a reason most imp players select England. England gets infantry out just as quick as Franks but England's infantry is much stronger. And yes Franks can self heal but it doesn't matter. If imp players want to be taken seriously they need to play with fast setts, otherwise they are all noobs to me!

GoSailing
EEH Seraph
posted 09-29-06 01:17 AM EDT (US)     16 / 21       
Any settings in Imp age and I'll own you, nooblet. Don't insult people just because they like Very Fast.

"It seems to me the humour of Sails is so dry you could strike a match on it and it would be the humour that caught fire." - Friend of Old
elder_king
Guest
posted 09-29-06 06:01 AM EDT (US)     17 / 21       

Quote:

The simple fact is, with England's drummer at about 15 minutes, nothing can match up to the speed, which means nothing can attack it.

How many times do I have to say: don't let England get its drummer! If you play correctly, you can pester England to the point where if they do get a drummer there will be too little to support more soldiers.

I agree entirely with bxnyc, as I have said before: Vfast settings cause all the England complaints. Play with fast speed!

And if you would like more examples of how I have stopped drummers:

Mass seige
Korean speed infantry
Korean gatling guns
Chinese priest freeze
French arson, embargo, night

Just think and you'll come up with countless others.

Bxnyc
Member
posted 09-29-06 09:05 AM EDT (US)     18 / 21       

Quote:

Any settings in Imp age and I'll own you, nooblet. Don't insult people just because they like Very Fast

Sounds like a challenge to me.

I accept your challenge and in fact I played u in imp before 2v2 vfast settings with a player from ES clan. We owned you and your partner Annoying idiot easily. And I dont even play imp hardly ever. But hey you might have a chance in beating me in fast settings, who knows. Afterwards you play me in WW and its GG!

Falcon907
Member
posted 09-29-06 03:37 PM EDT (US)     19 / 21       
dont get into a fight, players have every right to do what civ they wanna do

Imperial age sucks
World war auto setts pwn
I rest my case
GoSailing
EEH Seraph
posted 09-29-06 06:48 PM EDT (US)     20 / 21       
Bynx who are you? If you some smurfer who plays Empires or other RTS 10 hours a day you cant hardly play any setting. Even if you hardly play Imp compared to other setting, you still play more than me. Add that in to a 5 month break and at the moment and a week ago I'm sure you could have beaten me. I'll still you play you, but I need to know who you are first, and no smurfs, a name I know you by.

"Mass seige
Korean speed infantry
Korean gatling guns
Chinese priest freeze
French arson, embargo, night"

Most of those you can't get at 13 minutes (when people get drummer) on Vf speed (which I play and am NOT shamed of) or if you can get them, you won't have the eco/military to do anything if England pulls any tricks of their own.


"It seems to me the humour of Sails is so dry you could strike a match on it and it would be the humour that caught fire." - Friend of Old

[This message has been edited by GoSailing (edited 09-29-2006 @ 06:50 PM).]

elder_king
Guest
posted 10-01-06 03:07 PM EDT (US)     21 / 21       

Quote:

Most of those you can't get at 13 minutes (when people get drummer) on Vf speed

That's the whole point. You can still stop a drummer army on VF speed, but it becomes a balance issue.

To each his own.

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